“We put a giant cross made out of Texas limestone that will serve as the altar, but also serve as a landmark on our place for years to come,” President Bush told Good Morning America Monday.
The problem ‘i’ have here is: This is not Cousin Merle from next door we are talking about. This is the ‘leader’ of the Free World – Billions of people watch his every move and some even want to be like him! They Trust this man! With their very lives and the life of their Country.
He is NOT shy about declaring Himself to be a Christian and people are inclined to think he is representative of the Religion and that he does things that are ‘Christian’.
How is the photo and quote ‘Christian’? will other Christains imitate him? (assuming they had the money to do as he has for his daughter’s wedding?)
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:19
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Love honey, I think he meant an altar to be married in front of, not an altar to worship….is that what you were thinking or no??
I still need to go back and read your reply in the previous post about this too. 😉
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Hi Brandolyn 🙂
the pic speaks for itself – isn’t an altar an altar? it’s purpose is presumably as an honour to God? Why then do ‘we’ (GW here in this particular case) not honour His Word concerning it?
I get the sad feeling he is not the only one to do so (not just at weddings).
If we don’t obey scripture it’s a pretty clear indication we are not IN Him in Spirit. Even if we shout out loudly that we believe we are.
It’s not about what we ‘think’ – it’s about what He tells us!
What i want all to realise is this: We are fallible – we can still think (imperfectly) that one thing is ok when we have The Word of God to state otherwise.
WE can tend to ignore those things that do not support OUR view – in fact this is one of those things that makes us human!
We can convince ourselves we are in Him when we are remaining in US and only thinking (wrongly) that we are in Him.
We need to understand this or we will always be open to corruption.
Those who are truly In Sprit have no need of The Law of Moses (OT ordinances) – this is because they Follow Only their Father’s Will and Word without needing to refer to it to check they are not making error concerning it.
They Obey the Law all the Time!
Exodus 20 is the Word of God – not of man. Any who break the Commandments it contains is NOT in Him.
At least that is the way i see this issue – anyone is free to correct me if i be wrong here.
🙂
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To borrow a term from Alece…
Hmmmm…. 😆
I don’t know Love, I guess it is something that I would have to study more before I felt the same conviction you do about it.
I just keep thinking that I have a stone cross hanging in my kitchen with 1 Corinthians engraved on it, and wondering if that is the same thing as what you are talking about.
Also, isn’t sin… sin? “sin is sin” So how would GW be any different than me or anyone else in sinning. Confession: I say sh*t quite a bit…it just slips out at the worst times. Stub my toe…*!*!*! Slip on the stairs…*!*!*! You get the idea. I’m careful to NEVER say it in front of the boys, and I could be careful to never say it all, but, well, it happens. (HA!) Definately something I need to work on. 😉
So my question/point I guess is, how is GW having that cross constructed, different than me and my slip up?
Also, I do ♥ you Love! This is a great discussion topic I think. 😉
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Goin’ to bed now Love…. I’ll check back with you tomorrow!
♥ YOU!!!
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Bran – it is good to discuss our understanding of The Word – so that we can correct any error we find within us. (as my Lil Sis says – we need to examine ourselves)
I think you might be focussing a tad to hard on the Cross here.
There is some consideration to be given to graven images but i am NOT referring to this here. What i am drawing attention to is a VERY powerful Man who professes Christianity choosing to make an altar for his girl’s wedding and one that he says will stay in his garden as a permanent feature OUT OF CARVED STONE! let me repeat the Word as it is written in Holy Scripture…
25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. (Ex 20)
This is THE LORD speaking directly to Moses – not man making an ordinance – GOD’s WORD!
as for your slip up – it is so explicitly forbidden by God Himself?
If you know it to be then i suggest you ask his help to rid yourself of it. If not, you might try to just ease up on it for the kids sake but i don’t know of a verse that requires you to not do so in front of them.
In all things let us do His Will – not our own devisings.
and believe me when i say… I’m no saint either! 🙂 but if someone shows me that i am breaking His Commandments by my actions and i am telling the world about it (as GW i believe did) then i pray someone taps me on the shoulder and shows me why i should obey Him in all things. 🙂
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Hmmmm…. is right. (I’m glad that’s catching on)
I don’t have a problem with it but it may be because we’re looking differently at the very same thing. I don’t know.
In thinking about this, I’m reminded of the command to not worship idols. I don’t believe this altar was erected to be worshiped, but I do believe there are many things in each of our lives every day that we are putting before God (which, since that means we’re putting it in the highest place in our lives, I guess means we’re worshiping it). And while there is increased responsibility with increased leadership (as the case with GWB), we all need to be mindful of the things we are setting as our focal point, our priorities, any time we’re placing it before (or over) God.
Maybe that’s off-topic, but it seemed connected to me.
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I quite see your position Alece. The Command of the Lord to not worship idols (graven images of things on Earth or in Heaven) as God, is in this very Chapter i am referring to – but the problem ‘i’ have is not that – this is a very specific case and GW announced it via the media proudly to the entire world. And the World LISTENS to what this man has to say by reason of his immense POWER.
You, Bran and i don’t have quite the same responsibility to watch what we say and do – we are only responsible for ourselves and perhaps influencing a few others in our lives (like our kids, e.g.)
But when this man talks THE WORLD listens to him.
I think that makes a world of difference – don’t you?
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When I saw the picture I was very happy for the statement they made. Just as when I walk in a church and see a cross on the back wall or driving down the road I see a cross on a steeple, I understand Who that congregation worships. (I know the same when I see a crescent or a star of David)
Marriage is a sacrament, a vow made before God. Vows have historically been made before altars. I see this “altar” as a symbol, a declaration of the God who died and rose again for them…the Groom who marries His bride…the full picture is shown in the symbolism.
That’s what I’m thinking…hmmmmm…
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Big Brother and Lil’ Sis may not be seeing eye-to-eye on this one… 😕
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I truly don’t understand this???
Exactly what part of ‘Thou Shalt NOT’ don’t you guys get???:shock:
If you can’t understand one line of the Bible how are any of us supposed to agree in Him???
Has anyone READ Exodus 20 lately???
i must be missing something here??? 😦
Bible: “NO hewn stone altars to me.” – God.
“i had a big carved stone altar made and just so’s there’s no doubt who it is intended for i stuck a carved stone cross right smack-bang in the middle of it! – Bush
Hello?
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Cute new Avatar Btw Sis – who’s your good lookin friend? 😉
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P.S. for the THIRD time – it is NOT the cross that is the problem here, people! Some people are focussing so darn hard on that icon they can’t see anything else it seems?
Awwwww – he’s got a cross – i MUST be able to trust him!
🙄
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Why aren’t you asleep? I thought I’d be able to wait until this evening to get into this…
The cutie is my puppy, Sammie. She is my constant companion and I added her to my avatar in honor of Alece getting a new puppy…
I’m thinking the disconnect is two-fold:
You don’t like Bush (it seems). I do like Bush – remember Texan here, have known of him and his family for years…they are authentic…even if you don’t believe in his policies…he is truly a man who loves Jesus. His testimony is amazing.
The second point, we are under Grace not Law. The Law has been written on our hearts and is not on tablets of stone any longer…every bit of the Law was fulfilled, completed, and imputed in us who believe through Christ’s death and resurrection.
If we are to follow the written Law to the letter then don’t eat lobster or shrimp and be sure not to drive a car on Saturdays…
We don’t have to be circumcised in the flesh, our hearts have been circumcised with the Spirit’s work within.
The “spirit” of the Law, look to the Big Ten – to not worship other gods or make any graven image – to love the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength…we are children of the Spirit and not the flesh.
Does that help to explain my thinking any better?
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Sorry love, I just can’t agree with this line of thinking either…..doesn’t mean I don’t love you tho….;)
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Hey love, I’ve gotta go with Michelle on this one. I think this is GW’s and the Bush family’s way of saying to the world, “We are Christian, we worship God, and he is part of our daughter’s wedding.”
I know I owe you a memoir post … but I’m out commenting right now.
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“NO hewn stone altars to me.” – God.
i don’t believe he created that “altar” TO god…
maybe that’s where we are viewing this differently?
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Ditto Alece and Michelle…. They said it better than I could.
sawreee Love. ♥ YOU!
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Okay, I haven’t commented here for a while and was hesitant when you first posted ‘Altar Ego’…
But I have to join the ‘crowd’ in their estimate of what the altar symbolized, as well as agree that it was a bold statement of faith to the world.
Still, before you get back to ‘what don’t we understand about Ex. 20’, I think the altar itself may have another application here.
I would agree it was made TO God (as least to demonstrate commitment TO HIM) but not for the purpose of offering dead sacrifices to Him as required under the Old Law.
Instead I think it could very well serve as a reminder to the couple that they are to offer THEMSELVES as LIVING SACRIFICES (Rom. 12:1) daily to HIM first and then to one another. That is something you often rightly emphasize.
Yes, it was hewn of stone, and yes, it was an altar, but as Michelle said, do you obey ALL the law, and if not, how do you pick and choose?
There’s also Romans 14 that says we shouldn’t judge one another regarding how we choose to honor God (by keeping certain ordinances, days, etc.). Verse 10 says,”But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.” NKJV
I believe it was meant to honor God and point others to the family’s commitment of faith to HIM.
On a side note too, this altar reminds me of the ‘stone table’ in “The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe”, and that sacrifice has already been given as well(another good reminder I think =)!
‘Sorry for ‘ganging up’ against you, but we tried to be ‘gentle’ I hope =)!
Love ya 2,
D-
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Since we’re piling on, I thought I’d throw you a bone love. I agree with this statement:
“This is the ‘leader’ of the Free World – Billions of people watch his every move and some even want to be like him!”
Plus I like how you quoted ‘leader’ … I can almost hear you clearing your throat before saying the word 😀 … And although it probably won’t help too much, I assure you, I do not want to be like him.
ps. I work about 6 blocks from the guy’s house and he’s a work-at home type. So if you want me to ask him some question let me know I’ll go knocking.
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Ric, you live 6 blocks from the Whitehouse??? I’m so jealous. SERIOUSLY JEALOUS. I love DC. Like, reaaaaaaallllyyy love it. 😀
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Brandy, I work 6 blocks from the Whitehouse. I live in Maryland, about 30minutes to downtown by train.
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Good Morning All 🙂
Nice to see you here again Ric 🙂
OK firstly let me expres my thanks for being so loving as you express what appears to be an opposing belief to mine – it is truly appreciated even though i do feel sad that others currently feel they must be in disagreement with my thoughts here.
The thing is – while it is me saying this it is not OF or about ‘me’. ( so i don’t feel personal indignity at all – to anyone, all of whom i still love just as much as before i wrote these 2 posts.
Can i point out something?
I am now very well aware of Grace and The Law of Moses and the action of Christ who perfected (‘finished’) The Law.
Those who are truly IN Christ have no ‘need’ of the Law. – because they obey it in it’s entirity (perfection) all of the time!
ALL OF THE TIME! (Thy Will Be Done, Father)
I am not intending to ‘knock’ or pull down Bush Here – i am STANDING UP for MY GOD!
it is interesting to view the ways you chose to excuse Mr Bush yet this one fact remains indisputable… The Lord Said to Moses (the leader of His Chosen Remnant He saved from Pharoah)”And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.”
Show me where it limits the kind of altar being built or the purpose for which it is built?
Do you say because of His Grace that God is made a liar? That the Comandment he gave to man directly no longer has any validity? That it is somehow less true for man?
In Spirit i say that an altar to God Almighty is not improved or made more perfect by man than the original form that God gave to it. Such can and is only ever to be done by God Himself.
Once we think ourselves God’s equal we make again Original Sin.
I am not yet wise enough to understand every single Law rom Deuteronomy and understand that if i sin willingly i am turning away from God.
But when His Word is made clear to me (and this Word (Command)is CRYSTAL Clear in Exodus 20 and repeated in Deuteronomy 27:5) i will not turn or be turned away from it by any man.
Sorry folks i still stand open to seeing where i am reading this ‘wrong’ but no-one has come close so far.
Bush might well be a ‘christian’ who believes stroingly on Christ – i asume the minister at the wedding was also and perhaps many who attended ( and another 100 million or so in America who saw the photos and heard Bush speak) and to the best of my knowledge not a single one of them remembered Exodus and specifically the Direct Word of God Himself.
Frankly – that concerns me a very great deal.
Jesus did not destroy the Law for the very reason that many would be so overcome by the power of Grace they would forget what the Lord Commanded and believe themselves free to do anything of their own choosing.
The Law reminds us when we ‘step out of line’ with Our Father’s Will.
Anyone see me doing this here (and have God’s Word to back them up?) because if i am i NEED to know!
God seemed quite clear on this issue to me.
I am in no way diminishing Christ’s Work as He too was only ever cognisant of His Father and not his own want.
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Ric – you did such a great job with the Pope and Boxers or Briefs – if the chance arises would you ask George about Ex 20: 25 – like, if he ever read it and why he chose to turn away from it so publicly? Will he be doing so for the other verses in Ch 20 one by one?
Oh!, and who his Stonemason is? 😉 👿
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Sis, Sammie? is that just coincidence you named him the sam e (almost) as NE’er’s dog? or have i got the two of you mixed up? 🙂
Deb and Laz – would either of you two fine ladies please look at Ex 20:25 and see why what it says might not be what it says? I trust you to study the Word and report faithfully. Actually, i think Sis is rather good at original translation too? – ‘Chelle! – any new perspective for me on that verse??
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This conversation is definitely challenging and I admire everyone’s ability to walk in love while expressing their perspective.
Let me premise this comment by saying I do not have a political affiliation with Bush. Nothing personal. I just don’t agree with many of his political decisions and would not vote for him if he ran for office again. I am not saying this to sound malicious or create a political feud, I am saying it to say that my response has nothing to do with a like or dislike for Bush and his leadership.
[Btw Michelle: I respect your knowledge of the Word so much. You are truly grounded in it and I appreciate your participating in this conversation so very much.]
I want to touch on some things before I express my opinion on whether or not what he did was in conflict with God’s Word.
Jesus’ birth, death and resurrection created a new covenant between God and His people [us]. This is an extremely powerful statement; one that I do not take lightly. Does this mean we are justified in committing sin or breaking the “law”? Absolutely not. But for lack of a better term, it’s “allowed” [note I didn’t say acceptable, I said allowed, there’s a difference]. If it wasn’t all of us would be in big trouble. That’s where His grace comes in to play. Of course when we really believe in our hearts that He is Lord, we want to work on getting rid of our sin, we want to become more like Him, we want to sacrifice a fraction of what He sacrificed for us but it doesn’t mean we won’t fall short or we won’t make a mistake during the process. God’s Word declares that “everything is lawful but not beneficial.” Again, it doesn’t justify sin but why does God hate sin so much? Because it hurts us. Because it affects us negatively. Because it brings conflict and chaos to our lives which is not why He came; He came that we may have life and life more abundantly [peace, joy, strength, healing, deliverance]. So while everything is allowed, God knows that everyting [many things] will not benefit us but in fact, will bring us harm.
Yes Bush is a World icon. Yes Bush represents the Christian community to a great extent. Yes Bush’s perspective can influence many. So can a lot of other people’s. See the news on Oprah lately? See how Rev Wright’s message may be misinterpreted and used inappropriately? See how I may have said something on my blog that sounded judgemental and someone may have read it and I may be the only Christian he/she may ever have and ever will encounter? We all have the same responsibility Bush does regardless of the amount of people influenced, affected, listening. We are ALL called to be ambassadors and witnesses. Not one of us are exempt from that. If we turn even one person away from the faith because of a false witness, we have hurt God.
I don’t believe Bush committed a sin. In my understanding of God, He looks at the heart [intentions] and He works on our attitudes and actions through our intentions. If our intention is to disobey God and we don’t consider Him as the Great I Am then yeah, we’re going to constantly go against His Word and commit sin because we haven’t given Him much to work with. And we won’t have any peace. But when our hearts are willing and open to His will. When we have the intention to obey Him and be aligned with His Word, He works on the inside and helps us to get to a point of being aligned with His Word. And it is then when we experience His perfect peace.
Bush’s intention was to honor God in His daughter’s ceremony. Like others have stated he didn’t put up the altar to worship carved stone or to disobey God. And left to our own devices, even with the best of intentions, we are bound to make mistakes or a bad choice but that in no way means that He is not in us. The same Word tells us that He knew all of that about us before He decided to sacrifice His life and He still did it so that He may be in us to work through our carnal nature and transform it into a spiritual vessel with a purpose in God’s Kingdom.
Brandy said something that caught my attention in terms of whether or not the same concept applied to a cross on her wall. I would go a step further and ask the same question regarding pictures, decorative items etc? Christmas trees? Christmas lights? Again, I do not believe God wants us to focus on that. He wants us to focus on our spirits and the ability to be conformed to the leading of His Holy Spirit that lives inside of us.
Love, I admire and respect your desire to constantly challenge yourself and others in our understanding of the Word. I agree that it is very important to understand what God has said and to honor it as part of our reverence for who He is. I encourage you to pray and allow the Holy Spirit to interpret that particular scripture for you. I know that when I struggle with scripture in terms of interpretation and people saying one thing and me thinking another, prayer and seeking wisdom from the Spirit helps me get to a point of greater understanding. He will speak to you concerning this as He will to all of us as we meditate on your question.
Have a wonderful night and I’m sorry if my comment sounds disjointed. I have so many thoughts; it is slightly challenging putting them all in writing!
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Welcome gc – your input is appreciated. and i understand your heart here. 🙂
I found this to be the part that spoke the loudest to me…
“And left to our own devices, even with the best of intentions, we are bound to make mistakes or a bad choice but that in no way means that He is not in us.”
IF we were left to our own devices (even with Grace upon us) we would, and many times already have, make mistakes or bad choices by reason of our imperfect will and massively over-inflated ego (which is why we are entreated to humble ourselves).
However, God knew this of course and so gave us the Law so we could easily check when we were about to make an error.
Fanatic Muslims gave their very lives in sacrifice to their Faith in God. They either ignored, or did not have, the Word of God to not shed innocent blood when they chose to ‘praise Allah’ on 11 Sept 2001.
GW did not shed innocent blood but he did ignore/disobey God’s Word and i have not seen any claim otherwise (with anything like evidence) as yet.
Doing so personally is something we are accountable only to God for – but doing so so publicly i believe is far more serious a matter.
Focussing on the Spirit does NOT mean we pick and choose or diseregard the stated Word. Particularly as in this case when it came direct from God’s Mouth to Moses ears and he had it faithfully reported in Exodus 20 – such a vitally important reminder of when we break His Commandments.
If we truly Love God and do His Will we have always His Word in our ear, mind and Heart. We do nothing to disobey Him – in ANY thing.
Least of all His Commandments. Do i err here at all? I am not saying Do as I Do – i am saying do as He Commands.
You can all search your own hearts and minds on this one – but please don’t ignore the faults you may find so that they continue in you unabated.
If any are found seek His Grace and Wisdom to impart into you and remove from you any fault of your own understanding.
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Love, first of all….. ♥ YOU! 😀
Okay now, what if ol Dubbya didn’t KNOW about this verse you are referencing? I did not know about it until you brought it up. If he did not know about it beforehand, is he still DELIBERATELY going against God’s word? I don’t think so. But say if someone like you, who feels a strong conviction with this verse, went ahead and did as Bush did, then wouldn’t that be different? Wouldn’t you then be able to say “you knew better?” Do we know for certain that Bush was well aware of this “Law” at all?? I’m just asking b/c I wasn’t until this discussion, maybe he doesn’t either???? ANd I know, you may be thinking “someone who has professed to be a devout Christian like himself SHOULD know” but I have been a christian “all my life” and I still didn’t know about this verse, and honestly I don’t know if I would have seen it with the same eyes you do had I come acrossed it by myself.
Make sense?? I think it also kind of goes back to the verse Dana referenced…Romans 14:10. 😉
♥ YOU!
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It seems pretty judgemental to me that you would know his motives behind this. What if he wanted to make sure his daughter was married with the symbol of the love they have for Christ….a symbol of their faith, as Christians.
I agree with Brandy…maybe he’s not aware of this verse. I see nothing wrong with this personally as I’m assuming his intentions were honorable and his heart was in the right place.
Being military, I’ve heard many stories from accurate sources of President Bush’s heart for Christ and his desire to make a difference.
I commend him for doing something that showed his faith, whether everyone gets it or not.
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I see churches all time that have alters at the front of their churches with crosses placed on or in them. How is this different? Except it’s outdoors and the fact that he wanted to have a place for years to come. I don’t think he meant it as a place to come to God, not other gods. Our father God.
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Typo above: I don’t think he meant it as a place to come to God, not other gods. Our father God.
Should have read:
I think he meant it as a place to come to God, our Father in Heaven, not as an alter to other gods.
Have I left enough messages yet? 🙂
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Love, I have taken a lot of time, thought and prayer before answering this. I don’t in any way want to sound disrespectful or come across wrong…in that light I will take a little time to explain why I believe the way I do.
The King James Bible says “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down theyself to them, nor serve them”
The word “any” seems to ban all such images. Then, the translator has used the word “graven” as his best guess for the real meaning of the original word, pesel, pecel. That word means “image” but is often interpreted as “idol”. Pesel’s root word is pasal or pascal, which means “to cut, hew, or hew into shape” which has no connotation of idol-making, so the interpretation of pesel as “idol” seems unjustified. The English word “graven” is a fairly neutral term which means “drawn”, or “engraved”, or “carved”. The term graven image seems to be good, because to me it captured the literal meaning of pesel (image) and also its root meaning.
So if we stop there, the commandment seems to be that, “you shall not make any carved or engraved images”. But, it does not stop there.. it also says “you shall not bow down to them”. I believe the intention of this commandment is to ban idolatry, and not to ban figurative art. There is a temptation to place the idolatrous worship with the carved or engraved image.
For me love, it is the worship of the image, not just the image, just like the love of money, not just money, that is so wrong.
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Hey, Love! I’ve done a bit of study to try and understand the command better. From what I have gathered, this altar that is not to be hewn of stone is an altar that is to be used for sacrifices to God. Blood sacrifices and whole burnt offerings.
This point was kind of interesting…From the hewning an iron tool was used…the rabbinical understanding is that the iron was an instrument of war and the altar was a symbol of piece; therefore, an instrument for war would defile the peaceful union between God and man.
From JewishEncyclopedia.com:
The Hebrew name for Altar is explained as signifying, “It wipes away sin; it nourishes the higher man; it fosters love for God; and it atones for all guilt”: its four letters (initials of meḦilah, zekut, berakah, Ḧayyim), point to Forgiveness, Justification, Blessing, and Life. It was considered a miracle and a proof of the manifestation of the Shekinah that the continual fire upon the Altar did not destroy the copper with which the stones were overlaid.
I found this fascinating in light of Hebrews 13:10-13
We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp. Therefore, Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. So, let us go outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
I think this is saying that Jesus is our altar. He became our whole burnt offering. He is our Forgiveness, our Justification, our Blessing, and our Life. He is the Shekinah Glory who has come to live within our hearts! Now we are to share in His reproach, we are to give ourselves up as a whole burnt offering to Him, totally consecrated for His glory to shine through us.
We call the piece of furniture at the front of the church an altar for it is upon this table we place the bread and wine in remembrance of Him…of His sacrifice.
The Old Covenant was a shadow of the New Covenant…we have the true altar found in Christ.
What do you think?
Oh, NorEaster and I named our dogs separately, but considering how much we have in common, it wasn’t really a surprise to either of us that we our dogs share the same name…
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Morning Brandy, Kim, Debs 🙂 Love that you are willing to put your hearts on display here – i am VERY thankful for that. 🙂
Brandy – you spoke perfectly! (luv U)
What you said though brings me such great sorrow – not because i feel you are opposing me – i would never believe that of you nor would it be of any great importance to me as a Christian Man since my own opinions are of my ego and deserve to be made as nothing.
Why i am full of sadness is that you and GW have not recalled reading this verse. Yet you are both known to me as being ‘strong’ Christians.
It is even sadder because it seems like you are by no means the minority of Christians.
This verse is only 8 verses after those in Exodus 20 that describe to us for the very first time the Ten Commandments that i would hope every single Christian has written in their hearts and read over and over and over until they are burned into their brains because we should by now have all proven to ourselves that we NEED this done because our minds always pull us away from the word of God – even if our Hearts try to pull us back again.
This was why we were given The Law before we were given His Son – to try to stop us from doing wrong by reminding us clearly of what ‘wrong’ is.
Christians WANT to ignore the Law because of their desperate HOPE in Him. They WANT to not do wrong by reason of His Grace…. and yet we ALL fail to become perfect as he did because we don’t DO as He did – we don’t get complete control over our own Will so that we only ever have the will to do our Father’s Will.
But i digress. I can believe your suggestion GW may not have known he was breaking the Word of God by having a stone altar made and displayed to the World for his daughters wedding ceremony (that he clearly wanted to be blessed by the Christian One God).
That does not alter the fact that EX 20:25 specifically forbids him doing so.
Would he be any less wrong if he broke the fourth Commandment (or any one or several of the Ten)because he had never read (or did not remember reading) it.
If he shed innocent blood (killed someone innocent) would you defend his action?
What would it take to actually speak up as i am doing when the President of the United States breaks and makes as nothing the Word of God one piece at a time?
Would you stand up for God here on Earth?
Or believe it might be you who are somehow incorrect and agree with the law-breaker?
I am very very sad.
Debs, I asked in my comments for you to supply a true translation of the verse 20:25 in case my translation of the KJV was somehow ‘wrong’. I thank you for your true explanation of what YOU saw.
Sadly, i was not and am not querying Ex 20:3,4or5 (THIS time – i have raised the isue in the past).
I agree with what you wrote above – but you missed the whole point here – it’s Exodus 20:25 and it’s about ANY altar man makes to God – that it NOT be made of cut stone. It is NOT about the Cross ( although my original post had that as a concern because in the clip i heard GW said he had had a cross made out of Texas Limestone ‘AS AN ALTAR’. The phot clearly shows the Cross is an altar decoration and is going to be a significant part of the altar but it is resting ON the (hewn) ALtar. The ALTAR is my issue as that is explicitly against the actual spoken word of the Lord.
Can we PLEASE get this clear and not get sidetracked everyone?
NO HEWN STONE FOR MY ALTAR! – GOD.
Kim, those words immediately above are NOT MINE!
You have been the first to correctly see why i am greatly concerned by GW’s ‘blasphemy’ ( harsh word since the consesnus seems to be that he did not know he was speaking against God when he told the world what he had done and then showed it to them with his daughter, her betrothed and a minister ‘blessing’ the picture of a hewn stone altar at the wedding.
Hes not the only one doing it!!!!!!! 😯
I have seen more than ny fair share of churches and cathedrals that have hewn stone altars. and to the best of my knowledge not one Christian has read Exodus 20:25 (twenty-five!) and politely told the church ‘owner’/minister that this was a blasphemy of God’s own word!
What is wrong with those Christians?
I believe i know but can anyone else see a problem here?
And Kim forgive me, but if you read ‘judgement’ of GW’s MOTIVES in anything i wrote then it is you who have the judgement issue as i have NO idea what his motives are in doing what he did so i cannot possibly be judgemental of them.
I can however read God’s Word and clearly see if someone is breaking it. I will not be silent when i see someone ‘teaching’ the world that it is ok to do this – even if by reason of their complete ignorance.
I have asked several times for anyone to show me why my reading of the verse in a KJV is wrong – not one has yet done so although many have sought to make ‘apologies’ for poor old George.
I am trying to be ‘fair’ and not ‘knocking’ Mr Bush or being unrighteously judegmental. But i stand firm on ‘judging’ in righteousness when someone so influential so publicly breaks the Word of God, our Father.
“I think he meant it as a place to come to God, our Father in Heaven, not as an alter to other gods.”
That is PRECISELY the problem and you NEED to read Exodus 20:25 to see why i made thses two posts.
It is here: 25 And if thou wilt make ME an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
The problem i see is that man by putting his ‘stamp’ upon the altar to a stone that God Has created is saying to God “i can make things ‘better’ than you can” while he is supposed to be giving his thanks and prayer to God Almighty, who created man. and everything else in the Universe.
And Kim – you can never leave me enough messages 🙂 ♥
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Morning Sis 😀
Thank you for your careful consideration. It is quite deep in both literal and spiritual understanding and i appreciate that. You spoke to the quote quite clearly.
I don’t see that hewn stone altars are any less prohibited from us however?
Exodus 20:24 clearly describes an altar of Earth that is to be used for the pupose you mention.
Exodus 20:25 refers to making me an altar of stone.
Are there any other kind of altars than ones to offer a sacrifice to God?
Whas the point of GW’s Altar to be a place where God was to be remebered and to offer our (their) ‘sacrifice’ to Him upon it?
If not then what was the purpose would you believe? What is that saying about our ( their) reverence to God?
And since Kim kindly brought it up (actually i think i might have also ‘in passing’) 😉
What then of Altars of stone in our local church/cathedral? do they have som ‘other’ purpose i am unaware of?
As to Hebrews 13 and the idea of the Old and the New Covenants.
I think God wanted man to come back to His original ‘plan’ – fo rman to perfectly do the Will of God and only His Will, but he did not want an ‘automaton’ who obeyed without question, he gave us free-will.
Man never ever as a group did what God expected and He had to give us ‘The Law’ in the hope we could see where we were going wrong and correct ourselves.
This again ‘failed’ and He then had need to resort to giving us a New and hopefully better way.
That we all choose to follow Jesus’ example here on Earth.
After 2000 years of effort it seems like the plan is not quite going the way He had in mind.
Man is a very poor user of the mind/Law and has such a weak heart when it comes to overcoming our mind’s lawlessness.
We spend far too much time out of ‘The Word’ – in ALL sense of that term.
Love you Sis. 🙂 ♥
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OK those were long heavy posts.. not all might have time to read so here is the shortened versions…
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Brandy ♥ i agree – GW may not read his bible all that much – or remembers much of what he reads unless it suits his ideas. He clearly did not read the chapter concerning the Ten Commandments all that well it seems.
When reading a book (ANY BOOK) i think it wise to at least read to the end of a Chapter or you might not fully understand what is being said in the first part of the chap!
Romans 14:10 – beautiful! However i have no Judgment of Bush i have no power over him whatsoever.
I do see that he has made God’s Word to be as nothing in this instance (he is by no means the only such – he is simply the most recent and most widely seen) and it is this i am bringing attention to so others are not inclined to make the same error.
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Kim, i will never get tired of reading you here 🙂
I don’t know his motives! i never claimed to. My issue is whith a very prominent person very prominently (albeit unwittingly perhaps) disobeying thr WORD of God.
On Earth we say ignorance of the Law is NO excuse – it is clear to anyone with a bible and both you and he should have some handy by now?
if it is NOT clear – and i fear many people’s own ego’s are preventing it from being so -then i feel you could be in some very deep trouble and i hope by writing these posts you and a number of others begin to see why that is and do something to ensure your eternal salvation.
If we break God’s Word (knowingly or unknowingly) we are NOT in Spirit.
If we do so knowingly then we sin.
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Deb, Love you also.
You are quite right in what you said – i trust your interpretations.
i am not in this case saying anything about graven images or Ex 20:4 (or love of money – eeugghhh!) – sorry.
Lower down – verse 25 – how’s that looking for you?
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Hey, Love, I don’t have much time but I wanted to answer this question:
“Are there any other kind of altars than ones to offer a sacrifice to God?”
Yes. Within the Tabernacle and later, the Temple, they had two altars. The first was the Brazen altar where the animals were sacrificed. The second was the altar of incense which symbolized the prayers going to heaven, it was placed before the veil separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies, where the ark of the cov’t was placed.
The “altar” we had in our church was a table with candles and a place to lay the trays of bread and cups of wine. Lower down in front was a prayer rail which we also called the altar and would come during an appointed time in the service to pray, or come forward for communion. It was a place to remember the sacrifice made for us and to pray our prayers, or lay our burdens down, on the altar.
It was a combination in symbolism of the brazen altar and the altar of incense…I think it’s beautiful and have really missed that the Bible church I attend doesn’t have any such place. It was a special place to kneel and purposefully meet God.
I know I don’t NEED it, but it’s still lovely symbolism in my mind.
Gotta go to bed…love you, Love.
😀
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Love Love Love ♥
Well, what is left for me to say that will not cause more “disagreement” on the issue? 😉 I think this is an “agree to disagree” thing in our interpretations of what has happened concerning Bush.
I am very sorry that what I told you has made you so sad. Truth be told, I am NOT well versed in the Bible at all. I cannot site scripture off the top of my head and I don’t remember verses word for word. Do I think this is something I could improve on? Yes. Do I think it makes me less of a Christian? Less devout? No, I don’t. I didn’t become a Christian b/c of something I read in the Bible. I’m not discounting it AT ALL so please don’t get me wrong, please. I’m just saying that even though I am not as “schooled” in the Bible as you or someone else might be….I don’t think it has any bearing on my committment either.
In the words of Forrest Gump, “That’s all I have to say about that.” 😆 HAHA!!
But know this, I do ♥ Love! 😉
Also, I read ALL OF IT. ALL. OF. IT. 😀
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Oh, and also, I have read all of Exodus and I just don’t remember that verse. Really. I should clarify, I have read A LOT of the Bible, whole entire books and all (like you suggested) but my capacity for memorizing those books is small. 😉
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Morning Love bug, ♥
I will look into that verse and get back to ya tomorrow….I, like Miss Bran sista girl, read. all. of. it!!! Thank you for taking the time to write all of that!!!! Exodus 20:25…got it! Sorry I’m short tonight…sleepy girl! Off to read Exodus….Loves ya!
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You Guys Rock! 🙂 well Ladies Rock – you know what i mean here 🙂
Bran, we all have our own gift of the Spirit – sometimes i can forget that my gift of reading and memory is not what all are as inclined towards as i feel i am.
(I’m still struggling to come to terms that not everyone thinks the way i do – even if the world would clearly have less strife and misery in it if we did ! lol 😆 )
Imagine though what the world we live in would be like if we did not have honest police to uphold the Law? To the letter AND in Spirit.
If anyone was ‘free’ to do whatever appeared good to them.
Like eating ‘apples’ for example?
Chaos would ensue.
Living ‘in the Spirit’ while breaking God’s Law is what got us into this mess in the first place.
When we obey the Spirit we obey the Law also!
If we break any law of God we are not in His Spirit – if someone sees that what their brother or sister does is breaking such law is it not required of us to help them see what they are doing? That they then do not do so again and learn from the Law what their Spirit should do?
I don’t think many today give this the thought that is required and that is why Christ said many who call to Him “Lord, Lord have we not cast out devils in thy name?” are not actually going to see The Kingdom!
Those people also believed they were in His Spirit yet did not truly follow Him – for many reasons. yet all these reasons were the same kind…
They put their interpretation of what ‘in Spirit’ was before God’s ideas.
The Law is there for us still (Jesus changed not one jot or tittle – not any thing about it – and would not until the earth itself passed away) so that we can ‘check’ if we are doing God’s Will – or our own.
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Michelle! ♥
Rest and sleep well Sis.
When you awake and if you feel like responding, do you think any of those altars you mention God would have us carve up (so as to make ‘more seemly’, ‘more’ beautiful to our eyes and therefore (we believe in our minds) to the Lord’s eyes? So that he will be pleased with our handiwork and be more inclined to give us His Blessings?
‘Cos Frankly, to borrow a phrase – ‘I don’t think so!’ 🙂
Just what are altars FOR? To whom do they really belong? To whom do WE (our own self) belong?
What are we doing when we make a ‘beautiful looking’ altar by adding to God’s own handiwork??
Should we allow science to make us all grow two more hands so we can always hold two together in prayer to Him?? Or remove from us our legs so we can’t run towards evil as quickly? Give us ‘better’ eyes or larger ears?
How can we make a perfect altar to offer Glory to Him since we no longer need to offer a sacrifice of first blood?
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According to The 2007 Gunniess Book of World Records, in 2004 George W. Bush had the most expensive inauguration party in history, which cost $40 Million.
That’s $40,000,000.
The Tsunami hit southeast Asia three weeks BEFORE the president was sworn in for his second term. (Anybody remember that tsunami…?)
So…umm…Well, no offense, Love, but why, exactly are we talking about his daughter’s wedding…?
With all due respect to the president and his family, we all know that anybody can put up a cross and say, “I’m a Christian.”
But I kind of think ACTIONS speak louder. And things like inauguration (sp?) make me wonder where his heart REALLY is…
Just my take.
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Hey NE’er! Glad to see you here 🙂
you folks are getting a little ahead of me – my next installment of the Seven Deadly Sins (i started it – now i have to finish it – sorry) will be on Greed! so for the moment i’m biting my tongue! 😛
The reason we’re having this very long discussion Sir is this:
25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. (Ex 20:25)
I think the photo above and GW’s words to the world press describing his ordering of the altar being built are kind of self-explanatory – others don’t want to say ‘bad’ things about a christian president’s action given all the good he apparently does?
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Love,
Gladl to be here, buddy!
I’ve known some believers who won’t wear a gold cross on a necklace because they liken that to wearing a gold gun to honor me if I get shot to death. And others who believe that Christ was hung on a straight tree trunk and not a cross. Still others see the cross as a simple reminder of the sacrifice Christ made for all of humanity. I don’t mind seeing a cross in a church or at a wedding, but I don’t think I’m going to put one in my front yard anytime soon. 😉
So I’ve actually heard both sides of this discussion before, but I was hoping to bring the focus to his actions so that others could authentically ask themselves–or others–“We know trees by their fruit, but what fruit has this president born?” I think that question should be asked all the time of everyone holding public office in The United States.
I’m very much looking forward to that post on The Deady Sin of Greed. (And I’m glad you’re writing about it before me because that would be exhausting! 😆 But now since you’re already doing it, I can’t because everyone will think I stole the idea! 😆
Take care.
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love,
Here’s my in-depth analysis.
Those who claim to follow Jesus are all imperfect and will always sin while in this world. Those who dubbya relies on to hold him accountable are to do just that. I am not one of them.
Those believers who take celebrity theology as truth suffer a different sin. Those who each one of those (hoodwinked) believers rely on to hold them accountable are to do just that.
All people (believers and non) throw around words like ‘passion’, ‘love’, and ‘altar’ without understanding or in most cases even concerning themselves with the biblical definitions. Today’s secular and Christian use of the word ‘altar’ refers simply to ‘a table in the front of a church.’ If you look up the definition in a recent dictionary, I suspect that will be the primary definition.
What dubbya has contracted to be built is a decoration. A statue. A future tourist attraction. It is not an altar in the sense of OT Exodus 20:25. Its a table made of rocks. (Which makes me wonder to the origin of Table Rock Fellowship… hmmm)
I can’t concern myself with every Christian who appears to have sinned. I think even the Pope has been accused of this a few times and he has spent decades in God’s word. If, however, someone close to me appears to have sinned and this person is relying on me to help them grow in the Lord, I am concerned.
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Good morning, Brother Love!
I think Ric made some great points…
I have no more insights…poke me with a fork, I’m done. 😉
Hope you’re having a good sleep.
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Morning my brotha with anotha mutha…(that’s the extent of my rap gifting) *whew* 😆
I’m really glad that you have kept this going for a bit…I’ve been doing more digging and it’s been very enlightening for me to read up on this. Ok, the focus is Exodus 20:25. I’m sure you undertand first of all the mindset of these people when these commands were given. I’m going to bypass the OT vs. NT law stuff for now and focus on what was going on in these people at this time. The people then were very heavy into image-worship. Although they pretended to worhip them as representations of God, they made them rivals with God, which He will not endure. It seem at first, that they made their mages for worship of gold and silver, pretending, by the richness of those metals, to honour God, and, by the brighness of them to affect themselves with His glory;, but,they ended up dilusional in their worship of images made of wood or stone. Then, as you read through, you see that they are directed to make altars for worship…being in the wilderness and all….before Christ, they did make sacrifices on altars, and with that being necessary were given the instructions on how to make it. Because of all they had done and been through, they were told to make their altars very plain either of earth or unhewn stone that they may not be tempted to think of a graven image. They were to pile the stones up, not representing anything that would distract them from God. To this day, I believe simple, plainness is key in true worship to God. But getting back to your post, I don’t believe it was GW’s intent to create either and altar for sacrifice, or idol worship….I hope all of that makes sense…Love you love bug!!!! ♥ ♥
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Deb, my sista wit-s different Hista-ry ( ok now we all know the extent of my ‘gift’ for rap as well 😉 let us promise never to speak of that again 🙂 )
You make a lot of sense to me, I love it when you look into the word for me. (and for you too, of course).
I believe you got it right that ‘plainness’ is important to our worship. This can be taken two ways though – It is important that nothing ‘comes between’ man and God in man’s worship of Him – especially nothing which puts man ‘above’ God. (or an Idol for that matter – i believe such is a ‘stumbling-block’ that can make us trip and ‘fall’).
Even if something MAN-made is ‘simple’ if it is betwen man and God it can still be seen as man putting his own ‘need’ above the worship of God. I believe it is for this reason God commanded Moses not to ‘carve out’ an altar to Him but to use only God-Given items of earth and stone.
The other way of looking at it is that man can go TOO far in trying to ‘keep it simmple stupid’. God has made a miraculously varied environment for man to live in – nothing He has created is simple – on any level. If we see the enormous complexity around us how can we not fail to wonder with awe at Him or fail to worship our exalted position he has given to us in Genesis?
Why have we any need to make things ‘more beautiful’? or to keep ourselves limited to only ‘simple things in order to worship God in the midst of all this natural wonder and beauty?
I worship God in my Garden under a canopy of his Glorious sunsets – This never fails to remind me of how Magnificent and worthy He is and how lucky i am to be here experiencing it. I can always give thanks to the One Creator in such conditions.
Simple yet impossible for man to create or improve upon.
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and as a summation and in answer to something Ric and ‘Chelle’ (Morning Sis) have mentioned.
I feel an altar is not just a table and GW clearly stated he had an altar of stone made up.
An Altar is a special mechanism humans make to offer worship up unto God. That is its ultimate one purpose. – a place to praise Him.
He has stated AN altar to Him is not to be made of carved stone whereby man places a tool (of iron but at the time man had nothing other with which to carve stone effectively).
If we are going to make an altar for decoration only then that has to be the Ultimate Blasphemy and is saying we don’t even need to worship here.
Such a stone is a table – a table of carved rock.
Don’t call it an altar and tell the world what it is and GW actually said he was having a stone cross made as an altar!
GW does NOT have a good record of speaking sense in public. All of us can make simple mistakes and erors when we speak – not too many of us could make worse bloopers than GW – even if we were trying to.
end of. ( me, on this )
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Your right Love…no more rap!!!! LOL
I really like how you said some things here…
“Why have we any need to make things ‘more beautiful’? or to keep ourselves limited to only ’simple things in order to worship God in the midst of all this natural wonder and beauty?”
I believe that anything that is distracting from God could possibly mean it is not “simple” enough. Some people can’t worship with alot of hoopla going on…some people can worship without it. I don’t believe that makes their worship any less valuable to the Lord…diversity is important in the body. I really liked this:
“I worship God in my Garden under a canopy of his Glorious sunsets – This never fails to remind me of how Magnificent and worthy He is and how lucky i am to be here experiencing it. I can always give thanks to the One Creator in such conditions.”
Too many people worship the creation instead of God within His creation. i love my time outside with Him…we aren’t doing a garden this year..the summer is filling too quickly, but a couple of years ago when we had our garden, I loved walking through it or sitting in it in the cool of the summer evening. I know He likes gardens…He was always there. 🙂
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Deb, i think we just moved closer as Bro’ and Sis’ 🙂 I’ll be able to be ‘with’ you when next i am in the garden!
See – some good has certainly come from this post !
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I think good comes out of every post if we look for it Love…a friend just sent me this, thought you would enjoy it. Nite Love…it’s been good reasoning together with you… I ♥ u! 🙂
http://www.hall4bc04.org/Storm.htm
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Hey love,
“I feel an altar is not just a table and GW clearly stated…”
I think we’re all pretty clear your feelins’ towards altars and GW. Altars are easy to love, whereas, GW is well, a little more challenging to love.
My only point is the common-speak definitions of words alter over time. (Man, I love doin’ that!)
So like 50 years ago a person could describe him/herself as ‘gay’ and everyone would think he/she was very happy about something. See King James Version of James 2:3 and then look at any recent translation. We’ve altered the word.
Passion use to mean Suffering. No one would give that definition anymore. It is now #5 on the list at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/passion
One of my favorite dichotomies between biblical-speak and common-speak is antichrist. Even now my spell checker wants to capitalize it!
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