OK – i said a little while back i would explain more my ‘thoughts’ on Anger and why i included it ( incorrectly as it turns out! 😉 ) as a Deadly Sin when i meant to refer to the D.S. of Wrath (why His Holinesses, the Popes, refer to Wrath as a Deadly Sin when the Bible often refers to the Wrath of God i am not fully sure – seems it is ok to do as God’s Son does – just not as God does?? But Jesus IS God ?( I get so confused by Religious dictates sometimes!).
I was recalling that the Lord hates Seven Things and assumed without checking that these would equate directly with the Seven D.S.’s – but i was yet aghain – wrong there.
Proverbs 6:16 – 19 tells us those seven are:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Clearly these don’t match with:
Envy, Gluttony, Greed, Lust, Pride, Slothfulness and Wrath (Anger).
In Fact swift feet and slothfulness seem diametrically opposed and lying is mentioned Twice as a thing God hates but is not mentioned as a D.S.??
Ok – so a bit of confusion in my mind (as normal! 😉 ) and as a few kind people have also pointed out – God ( and even Jesus) get Angry from time to time (The Lord of the OT gets angry quite a lot of the time it seems?)
So why is it NOT OK for us to get angry?? ( or we should at least ‘rein it in a little’ and get SLOW to anger!)
Because – when we HUMANS get angry – pretty much most of the time we ‘lose’ (some or all) self-control – and that is a VERY bad thing to do indeed in my humble opinion.
When we get angry we leave ourselves Open to attack by – for want of a better word – Satan.
He uses those moments, and similar ones – when our emotions can just ‘run away with us’ and lead us to do less than Christianly things to one another – or ourselves, or to any living creature, to establish himself within our minds and digs down into our subconcious where he lurks – biding his time.
Anger is a sin – a time when we operate more from selfish personal ego than from Chraitable Christian Faith – it may not be a Mortal sin – but for us – it is a very dangerous one that we rarely ‘use’ in anything like ‘God-like’ control.
I don’t recommend it and advise doing all we can to remove it from us – as difficult as we will all find it while living in a less than perfect world.
BLob's Blog 
Hi Love: One thing I see in Gods Word is that there are scripture where He definately is angry. Like Exodus 4:14. Moses was called by God in the burning bush to lead isreal out of Egypt. Moses had been given reasons why he was not suitable. All the reasons were legitimate and very carefully refuted by God until Moses was left with no more reasons other than to either accept or reject the calling of the Lord. Before this passage Moses had asked God to send someone else..that was why God reacted in righteous anger to Moses’ unresonable disobedience. When Mo got down the mountain from the 10 commandments, we have Exoduse 32:19…The phrase used to d escribe the Lord previously was also used to describe Moses to demonstrate that the righteous anger of Moses was a legitimate anger for believers to experience. Righteous anger is right anger. To me if we don’t have righteous anger it is a reflection of a lack of love for God, His truth, justice and everything that is pure and good. If we feel no righteious anger when the Lord Jesus Christ is maligned and attacked, we have failed. If we don’t have righteous anger when the perfect Word of God comes under attack, then that to me is also sin. I don’t believe it is always wrong to be angry.
Anger is an emotion that is part of being made in the image of God, and I believe that like any other emotion created by God it wasn’t tainted until the fall. Since then all emotions can be expressed sinfully, including anger…Righteous anger is a reaction to wrong doing or sin. There are alot of steps taken at time to erase anger completely from our emotional make-up…but an impossible thing since it was built into God’s creation. Self-control is essential, and possible with the help of the Holy Spirit…Sorry, I’m rambling…just thought I would put my two cents in…Hope ur doing well!
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I totally agree with God’s Gal. I was raised to believe anger was a sin (maybe it’s a British thing – possibly?) and couldn’t understand why I couldn’t quit sinning…not always, but much of the time I am angry about sin. I’ve learned to pray “make my heart break with the things that break Your heart, and my heart rejoice with the things about which You rejoice” I think that’s why I get angry when I see the evil all around – I believe it is His Spirit within giving discernment.
Now, what do I do with that anger? If I take it to God in prayer I know He totally understands where I’m coming from and at times have felt the interceding of the Holy Spirit in that moment. But if I spew my anger in unloving ways then I have overstepped the bounds having let my flesh have free reign – then I have sinned in anger.
I tell my kids when they are angry, “I can see why that really makes you mad, it wasn’t fair and I recognize your point. And you’re not wrong to be angry; however, when you pushed your sister to the floor you stepped over the bounds. For that lack of self-control we need to steps of discipline…” I learned to stuff my anger instead of looking at it in the light of God, stuffing anger causes many disorders, depression being a major one.
And that’s my two cents…I’m beginning to run out of money. 😉
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I am glad you are clarifying some things. The “7 deadly sins” are not a biblical principle, but definitely a part of biblical principles.
I have to 3rd the other responses. anger (although the implication would be that it leads to improper response) is not sin. As Deb said, Jesus was very angry, but his actions led to proper response.
BUT,
“when we HUMANS get angry – pretty much most of the time we ‘lose’ (some or all) self-control – and that is a VERY bad thing to do indeed in my humble opinion.”
This and the other things you have written are wonderful principles of living and I would agree.
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Let me clarify, Deb was speaking of God in the OT and I was speaking of Jesus in the NT.
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We are to be “slow to anger”. It doesn’t say not to be angry – so this implies we will indeed become angry from time to time. There is righteous anger too. We need to be slow to it either way – because knee jerk reactions are often full of self and flesh. When we are slow to anger we are more mindful of the situation at hand and have given it thought.
Hope that makes sense…I have Disney channel on in the back ground and Kota talking to me…AHHHH – I’m getting A.N.G.R.Y.
👿
😀
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Michelle, you sound like quite an incredible Mom! I wish I had it together that much when my kiddos were young, totally agree with you!
B, exactly! I suppose the new testament example would be in the temple…
The three things I have found in scripture that have helped me the most with anger I’ve found in Proverbs…Proverbs 15:1…not to provoke, Proverbs 19:11…not to react to provocation…and Proverbs 21:14…bring a gift…the third reminds me of Jacob and Esau.
I agree with Tam, there is nothing worse than knee jerk reactions….ugh! 🙂
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Wow! Thanks, Deb…you’re seeing the result of YEARS of Christian counseling. 😉
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Now this is getting interesting – and forcing me to think clearly! 😉
The ‘consensus’ so far (with me being the exception (that proves the rule)?) is that anger in humans is ok? Providing we are slow to it. (And providing it is somehow ‘righteous’? – on whose understanding do we determine when our anger is ‘righteous’? – and how do we, and when do we?)
What i mean and am trying to reveal is that being an emotion, Anger grabs our minds (and therefore our limbs/heart etc) way BEFORE our conscious self-control can kick in. Depending upon the way it grabs us we MAY have a chance to exert that control before Anger causes us to REact (knee-jerk reflex) and do some serious damage…. i did say MAY! There are more cases in the world than i could ever number where we humans failed miserably to control our anger ‘in time’.
I mean from minor things where all we do is say a single wrong word that ends a relationship perhaps (the final ‘straw’) to the moments when in blind rage we grab a ‘handy’ gun and end one (or many more) lives.
Hopefully not too many of you have done the latter – but i guarantee all of you have done the former (even if the relationship was not totally ended because of it?)
Deb ( welcome back 🙂 ) please show me Scripture that states it is ok for Humans to demonstrate anger righteously (perhaps not difficult) and what constitutes valid reasons for humans getting righteously angry (very difficult if not impossible i am thinking?)
Anyone who agrees with Deb is welcome to provide Scripture that shows us (me) what is an acceptable thing for a man to be angry over.
Michelle – i was interested to hear that repressing anger leads to depression. While i can see a sort of ‘link’ i am of the opinion ( not proven fact) that depression comes more from human FRUSTRATION than from downright suppression of anger. While the two can often be a ‘related’ event (and perhaps particularly so in your own past (present?? 😉 ) i believe there is a distinct difference between the two that should not get confused (into one).
When we are frustrated (in our wish/will) there is certainly a resulting anger – many times, if not always.
I do not believe that Jesus or God ever had their Will ‘frustrated’ (disobeyed by humans possibly (probably! 🙂 )) but God’s Will is always carried out – eventually – and He does not operate on Human time scales or with the threat of eventual death (and the end of our ability to act here on Earth).
If we had the same criteria to work under (perhaps as Christians we do?) then we would not become frustrated?
Anger to me is the emotion that is felt when we feel that things are not going ‘right – as we think they should.
If we developed the ‘right’ attitude – the Christian one of Love, forgiveness and Vengance is Mine (the Lord’s) then Anger would forever depart from our sinful self.
Well – at least that is my belief. – of course – like most others here – i have more to work on! 🙂
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Should I run now? Just kidding! 😉
I think Tam did an excellent job of distinguishing between righteous anger and just blowing up all the time anger…Read Ephesians 4:26….It’s ok to get angry…just don’t let i drag you into sin. Obviously, in this scripture we are told we will experience anger. It can be a motivation even to bringing justice into action…but it can’t take hold of your mind and thoughts…
John 2:15 “Making a whip out of the chord, He drove them all out of the temple.”
This is not in Gods word so people will act irrationally and go crazy, it was Jesus defending the integrity of the Temple worship, which had been profaned by the money changers who had turned His Father’s house into a den of thieves.
He, in this case is exhibiting righteous anger and acting in an anger which is not sinful…His anger here is displayed for our benefit, so that we will not worhip strange gods…
I agree that we need to have love, forgiveness and let God do the vengence….but I also believe there are times that righteous anger is ok…just don’t let the sun go down on it. 😉
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Just looking at from a Biblical perspective (and considering that the word anger may not be the original word used at all times here) it seems that the ‘positive’ occasions of ‘slow rising’ and righteous anger are reserved for God. At other times, when the Bible is giving us advice about anger, it is almost (if not always) cautioned against.
Sure Jesus displayed ‘righteous’ anger but Jesus was (always?) in ‘control’ of his feelings. I think most of us are too far off the standard to even entertain the idea of anger, which is a recurring theme of Jesus’ sermon on the mount. It’s like playing with fire.
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Correct Christian dude…I understand what you are saying…but in the same way I hope you understand where I am coming from as well. Are you trying to say ur never angry? God has, given us this emotion…it is from Him…He wants us to recognize it and control it. I stand on what I have said and the reasons as well…there is a definition between anger, and righteous anger…
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I get angry all the time. And I will admit that there are times (rarely) when this is not due to my own self indulgent nature. It just feels good.
On those times anger comes about due to a perceived injustice then it can prove to be beneficial, up to a point. It must always be kept in check. Even those examples of righteous anger (Jesus, Thomas Paine, John Adams, William Wilberforce, MLK etc) were also examples of controlled anger.
But just as often a lack of anger, replaced by compassion, can be even more persuasive.(Jesus Gandhi and MLK again).
I think that most of us are too ready to become part of a crusade that has anger as it’s primary motivational force. Too often this deteriorates into open hostility. I think as a tool it should be avoided at all cost and perhaps only used as a last resort, after all other avenues have been exhausted. It can be too addicting.
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Chris! – have i told you lately that I Love You??? 🙂
I might not have been making that very clear over on your blog lately! 😉
Your choice of words above has SO impressed me i have now found my ‘own’ personal quote to put up on my Blog (like you, Tam and Mandy and others have on theirs.
Deb, i have a real problem believing that GOD gave us our emotions – i believe pretty much all of them are the devil’s playground and are ‘of’ him and are to be avoided/replaced by those derived from Love, not the self.
Of course, saying that – since The Devil is ‘of’ God also (He who created ALL things) then i guess at it’s very basic level – you are quite right 😉
I think it is all about us overcoming what makes most of us – us. (that’s what my ‘series’ – on Deadly Sin’s is aimed to do – give us better ideas on how to Overcome)
Everyone’s contribution IS important and i thank ALL of you who comment. 🙂
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More words about what i am about and about anger in us humans… ( From Collossians 3)
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Deb – The Scriptures are NOT a simple matter for simple men (or women) to understand!
Here is my proof…
Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Nothing else in the context of that passage counsels us to anger.
In my KJV the ‘Be angry’ has a reference: Ps 37:8
Ps 37:8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
The rest of the context cautions us to forsake evil and follow the Lord in righteousness (not into ‘righteous’ anger). Could it be that Paul ( or someone) made a small mistake and missed the word ‘not’ from Ephesians?
Be ye not angry?
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Oh and Deb, thanks for the John 2 quote (it is also similarly said in the other Gospels as well, Matt 21:12 and Mk 11:15 eg)
Having read all three i can find NO evidence that Christ was Angry as he did so – it is most definitely not STATED as such in scripture.
I fear that many times when Christians read Scripture they interpret what THEY would do, feel, etc. if they were in such a situation.
We are IMperfect Christ was NOT so – make sure you never make Him in your (our image) neither add to Scripture that which is not actually there.
Understand in Spirit (of Christ – not our own) – rather than the letter.
While He may have rightly thrown over tables and turned out the money-changers from His Father’s House i would be willing to believe He did so while in complete control – not out of Anger.
If we find theives and robbers in our home (uninvited) we (being human) would get angry and throw them out.
If we were as Jesus we may (not having any ego to get angered and frustrated in) we might command same to leave our house and if we had His Authority over them they would go in peace.
It seems we have a long way to go yet before any will follow His Authority. 😦
It begins and ends in Love.
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Wow, ya miss a day around here and have to take notes to catch up =}!
I think I can pretty much agree with the comments that since anger is a part of God’s nature, we should expect it to be ‘a part of us’ also. But as stated (in my original comment to your first post on this topic as well), it is to be Spirit controlled. One related passage that hasn’t been noted yet is Gen. 4:6-7 where Cain was angry (because of competative jealousy) and God told him to ‘master it’ or he would be ‘mastered by it’ (my paraphrase =). That’s in line with your thoughts too I believe, and agree with.
First, I tried and tried to find the Biblical reference for the ‘7 Deadly Sins’ as you listed them, but couldn’t. I finally googled the list and Wikipedia said, “..nowhere in the Christian Bible is there a list of the Seven Deadly Sins” ! It’s actually a Catholic modified version of Prov. 6:16-19. I guess you can research more how they arrived at their list from that.
I also spent a lot of time looking at verses where God was ‘angry’ to find out why (what ‘acceptible’ reasons He had). I just focused on passages that described what aroused His anger.
I’ll just note the texts and let anyone interested investigate the reasons for themselves:
Num. 11:10 (this has a parallel explanation in Ps. 78:17-31 also); Num. 22:22; Dt. 29:25-28; Judges 2:20; 1 Kings 11:9; 2 Kings 17:16-20; 2 Chron.34:21; Job 42:7; Ps. 78:56-59; Ps. 106:28-41; Zechariah 7:11-13; & Zech. 10:2-3
There were several different Hebrew words defined as ‘anger’ in these passages. They ranged in defintion from ‘anger’ to ‘wrath’ to ‘provoked to anger’ to ‘burst out in rage’. So, God is characterized as capable of them all.
Still, I defintely agree that our anger is too often ‘out of control’ while God’s never is.
There were many passages that described God’s anger, but balanced with His great compassion for His people that He had to discipline BECAUSE OF His love.
Just one more note. In the John 2 passage re: Jesus’ driving out the moneychangers, His emotion is described by quoting Ps. 69:9:
“For zeal for Your house consumes me,and the insults of those who insult You fall on me.” NIV
The original Greek word (Jn. 2:17)for ‘zeal’ is defined:
“zelos (dzay’-los); properly, heat, i.e. (figuratively) “zeal” (in a favorable sense, ardor; in an unfavorable one, jealousy, as of a husband [figuratively, of God], or an enemy, malice):
KJV – emulation, envy (-ing), fervent mind, indignation, jealousy, zeal.
and the Hebrew word in Ps. 69:9 is:
“qin’ah (kin-aw’; jealousy or envy:
KJV – envy (-ied), jealousy, zeal.
Okay, so that should bring on the next in one list or another , I guess! In any event, I agree His is perfect, and ours is far from it (but, with His Spirit in us, there’s always hope for improvement- Rom. 8:29 =)!
D-
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Wow Laz – as always you do your ‘homework’ (or do you just have all this ‘to hand’?? 😉 )
Ok – let me be clear – i am NOT challenging that God ‘gets angry’ (at least the God of the OT -the God of Israel).
There seems ample ‘evidence’ for that.
We are told we are made in His ‘image’ (a statue is made in our image but that does not give it the same emotions it’s creator posesses! Nor is it a command to the statue to do as we do!)
What i am saying (asking for) is when is it ‘ok’ for us falliable and prone to error and sin humans to be angry – according to our ‘Bible’ – Scripture?
Deb has quoted Eph 4:26 as evidence Paul thinks it is ok for us to get angry providing we don’t sin and we don’t let the sun set on it (we end it before sundown!).
Here is what Paul said 5 verses later (Eph 4:31):
‘Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice:’
Any other evidence that says humans SHOULD BE (not: do get) angry.
Again – this is a little bit of a ‘false’ trail – for which i apologise since Anger is apparently NOT a Deadly Sin as defined by the Catholic Church and the Pope’s of Rome who are supposed to be man’s infalliable representative of God on Earth (according to their dictates). The Sin they describe is Wrath. Here is a quote form Wiki that explains the Sin i was describing:
‘Wrath (or anger) may be described as inordinate and uncontrolled feelings of hatred and anger’.
In the same way that what humans think of as love is nothing like (all of the time) what God and Jesus mean by that term, so to what God is displaying as ‘Anger’ may not be what we often think of as our human emotion of anger.
As for Jesus’ emotion as he was in the Temple relating to Proverbs 69:9.
Having read the entire Psalm and accepting your translation of the term ‘zeal’ in this instance i do not see the connection (other than Jesus perhaps feeling the insult, personally, of those who insulted His Father’s house.)
He is describing his torment at the hands of his bretheren who insult both His God and him by reason of ‘zeal’ (envy, jealousy) for the House of the Lord.
Quite clearly, the person speaking in Psalm 69 is nost definitely NOT in a state of anger as he relates that verse, but of sorrow (and perhaps self-pity! See the end of that Psalm and consider if this person is acting as a loving Christian – or a persecuted Jew seeking revenge upon those who unrighteously persecute him?!)
Which of these is Christ in the Temple? What are we to really consider from the relation between that scene and this Psalm (verse)?
Christ is my example to follow – I do not see anything yet in the New Testament that exhorts me to adopt and accept my anger as a part of me to be retained – quite the reverse in fact.
Any agreement on that out there yet? 😉
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Well, it’s getting very close to my bedtime (probably will be past it by the time I finish for sure =), so I’ll apologize in advance if I’m not communicating clearly.
I do understand and agree that we as humans fall far short of God’s characteristics, and that our anger is rarely justified as is His.
I wasn’t trying to prove that God gets angry, but only noting those verses to explain WHY He does. It seems to me that those would then be the only justifiable reasons for us to also. It was interesting that most of those instances were toward His own people–thus the ‘discipline’ aspect of it.
I’m not a parent, but would imagine that when a child is disobedient, stubborn, or rebellious (as many of those passages described His ‘children’), anger is a natural response. But as has already been pointed out, it doesn’t have to lead to a sinful response, and should be SLOW in coming at all. Long before God took any discipinary action, He repeatedly warned His people through their leaders/prophets.
Also, the same word for ‘wrath’ in the Old Testament is used of God and man (in some cases evil men at that??). It’s defined:
“chemah (khay-maw’); or (Dan 11:44) chema’ (khay-maw’); heat; figuratively, anger, poison (from its fever):
KJV – anger, bottles, hot displeasure, furious heat, indignation, poison, rage, wrath (-ful).
A couple of those OT references for this word from my last comment are Dt. 29:25-28 and 2 Chron. 34:21.
In the New Testament, ‘wrath’ is almost always refering to God’s in judgment. It is defined as:
“orge (or-gay’); properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy,) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment:
KJV – anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath
The one time the same word is used for man’s wrath is in James 1:19-20 that has already been referenced somewhere previously ??. It is another of those that says we are to be ‘slow to wrath’ for the ‘wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.’ Again, I believe if it comes slowly and goes quickly (Eph. 4:26) it is not sinful.
One more… I didn’t read the full context of the Ps. 69 passage and should have. I apologize for that. Still, I wasn’t the one who applied it to Jesus in the temple. The apostle John was. There are sometimes OT passages that are quoted by NT writers that seem ‘out of context’ but if all is inspired by the Holy Spirit, there must be application there for at least the verse noted I think. If that scripture came to John’s mind when he saw Jesus in the temple, I believe it was relevant to the passion He must have displayed there.
It’s definitely time to say ‘good night’ (nite =) now. I do agree anger is a dangerous emotion that we must submit to the Spirit’s control. But I also still believe there are times when it is actually OF the Spirit as He is grieved over sin. That’s why I said previously (noting Mandy’s comment) that if that is the case, it will almost immediately turn to sadness instead.
‘Nite,
D-
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Laz – i love your comments and mean no disrespect – i find them always full of clear instruction and useful info for further contemplation.
I did understand your reporting of God’s anger (in the OT). I( by reason of Jesus’ Covenant) feel that i am not bound by Moses’ Law nor do I feel that the God of the OT has more relevance to me than does Jesus in the NT
I am not God, i cannot hope to understand Him entirely – i am human so i attempt to follow Jesus in my life.
Regarding John and Psalm 69:9, the Disciples (humans – of imperfect understanding, as Jesus frequently declares) we’re reminded of the Scripture (Psalm) after hearing Jesus declare to those selling doves (for sacrifice) in the Temple of Jerusalem “Take these things away and make not my Father’s house a house of merchandise.”
I can only see the ‘House’ connection – and perhaps a vague connection to ‘insulting the Father, insulting me’.
If there is anything else i should consider i should be happy for the instruction – but i feel there is little direct evidence that Jesus was angry, as we humans become angry over all manner of things, when He was doing the deeds John, Matt and Mark described.
As i have said before – i have ‘issues’ concerning my own anger (in that i do not feel in the least bit Godly or Jesus-like when it ‘grabs’ me. I rarely am led to commit any kind of serious sin as a result but i feel ‘less’ for allowing the things that i find making me angry ‘control’ me and not being able to control them.
I don’t like my anger. It flares up way to easily sometimes.
I have much to learn still. 🙂
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Don’t worry, that’s why I’m here.
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Hi Love: I just wanted to respond to a few things…it’s ok that we don’t agree on some things…I love and respect you and Mr. C…. 😉
First of all, any sin against God is deadly…it is only by His grace and what He did on the cross that I’m not dust…
“What i mean and am trying to reveal is that being an emotion, Anger grabs our minds (and therefore our limbs/heart etc) way BEFORE our conscious self-control can kick in.”
All things are possible with Christ, including self-control. With every temptation there is a way out…not to sin. Self-control is very possible in any fleshy temptation that pops up, and here are some scripture to refer to. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, Proverbs 25:28 and 1 Corinthians 7:5. Since I believe that I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me, and all means all, I believe we can have self-control in any area of our lives if Christ is the center.
Christian:
“I think that most of us are too ready to become part of a crusade that has anger as it’s primary motivational force.” That’s not what I’m speaking of. I believe there are stories and instances in the Bible where righteous anger is portrayed and handled in a way that brought honor to God without sin. I’m not speaking of a bad temper that blows up constantly…I’m saying that there is a time to have righteous anger and not have it considered as a sin. Being slow to anger as Tam stated is extrememly important, but there is a time for it.
“Deb, i have a real problem believing that GOD gave us our emotions – i believe pretty much all of them are the devil’s playground and are ‘of’ him and are to be avoided/replaced by those derived from Love, not the self.”
Love Bug…I also disagree here…the devils playground can be any part of our being, whether physical, emotional or spiritual. God created us in His image, all of it, He didn’t create part of us then allow the devil to our emotional part…All parts of us were created by and for Him, the key is giving all in subjection to His authority.
“Having read all three i can find NO evidence that Christ was Angry as he did so – it is most definitely not STATED as such in scripture.”
Neither have I read anything referring to the “seven deadly sins” in Gods Word, yet there has been quite an extensive post on it…could it be that God would like us to use a little common sense? 😉
Just some things I’m not on the same page with yawl with…Christian…question…why would you put Jesus in comparison with any other common man when making a point? Drives me nuts! 😆
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Thanks again for your considerate response to my ‘late nite’ ramblings =).
Just a couple of things to clarify:
I don’t think God’s nature is any different in the Old or New Testaments (not that you think so!).
Yet, there are definitely more instances of His wrath being poured out in the OT though. In the NT it is more regarding ‘coming judgment’.
That seems understandable because His wrath against sin was fully placed upon His Son in our stead (1 Thess. 5:9), so we’re in a period of grace while making our eternal choices. There will still be those who reject Christ’s sacrifice though lack of faith(Jn.3:36) or through continuing in deliberate sin (Heb. 10:26-31) in spite of professing faith. His judgment will come even now if in disciplining His own, but ultimately to all who reject Him in the end.
Maybe that was digressing, but I think it’s important to know that Jesus is a perfect representation of His Father(John 14:9-10 & Heb. 1:3). Yes, I do agree though that Jesus ‘having flesh’ gives us more ‘relatability’ to Him and He to us (Heb. 4:15).
As to the Jn. 2 passage, in my way of thinking, it was Jesus’ consuming passion John witnessed that reminded him of Ps. 69:9. It’s hard for me to imagine Him calmly moving and speaking when He was said to have a whip in His hand (??).
But I’m fine ‘agreeing to disagree’ on that =).
I do agree with Deb though that the ‘God-given’ passions within us are not inherently evil(of the devil), but rather when experienced in the flesh can still be overcome by the Spirit. When the anger is more God revealing His nature within us (‘righteous indignation’),it would still best be directed to intercessary prayer or at most warning those it is directed toward of God’s Word about it.
‘Sorry that wasn’t very brief (no surprise?), but I also wanted to say that I’ll be mostly unavailable to comment for the next couple of weeks. We have two sets of company coming (this week and next) and then we’re leaving town for four days (til 4/21). So, I may be around to keep up at bit, but not to do any extensive commenting.
Didn’t want you to think I was ‘boycotting’ =).
I will be praying for your weakness in this area, as we ALL definitely do stuggle with more than we’d like to admit. (My husband calls it ‘intensity’, but then again he’s an Irish/Italian combo =).
Love to ya Love,
D-
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Wow, Deb and Laz are really gettin’ it said…I’m just lovin’ all the scripture! 🙂
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Deb, because Jesus (according to the Bible) was a man. He was also God (which doesn’t make him ‘superman’) so we might assume that he was a bit better at doing certain things than the common man. And that’s why the comparison – just because Jesus could kick around some tables doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily a good thing for any of us to do.
It seems to me that most of the stories concerning well placed anger are attributed to God. With angry people things don’t usually go so well. But perhaps we aren’t on the same page because I don’t see anger as being a sin – rather it is often a symptom of the real sin; that of being focused on ourselves and not God. Not all the time, but most of the time. Enough of the time to avoid resorting to anger, no matter what the cause. If possible. 🙂
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Christian: Jesus was fully man and fully God which makes Him super everything. It’s ok to assume that He was better than the common man but not that He was angry in the temple? What is the criteria for assuming? I never said that uncontrolled anger was a good thing…I said righteous anger is something that is acceptable at times and that you can be angry and not sin. Ephesians 4:26. I still believe that any uncontrolled emotion, physical act, or spiritual embarking that is not of the Lord is very dangerous. BUT, likewise, when submitted to the Lord have their purpose.
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I never said he wasn’t angry. Just that his anger does not give us license to be angry. Especially if you see him as ‘super everything’.
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Like Michelle – i am loving the Scripture and discussion and honest yet respectful (so far? 😉 ) discussion.
Let’s make something VERY clear here – we agree on MORE than we disagree – we might have our slightly difering perspectives on a couple of points which are not all that significant – as long as we understand correctly for ourselves and live accordingly and are not hypocrites.
There does seem to be one ‘sticking point’ though.
Is anger a sin?
I have explained my ‘mistake’ concerning the Deadly Sin ( Deb – while you may not be a CATHOLIC Christian (neither, i can assure you, am i) they are THE largest single ‘denomination’ of Christians on the planet!
THEIR leader – the most important and influential religious spokesman for these people throughout History has determined that Wrath (Anger) according to Wikipedia) is a MORTAL SIN for humans – one that leads to the loss of our eternal life.
Are you saying that you have a better understanding of Anger than the Pope?? – or are you simply arguing that whatever God does is ok for us to do?
What then of all the Scripture (two of which i have already offered and am certain more examples would be found if YOU cared to look, that specifically instructs us to put angr AWAY from us – not ‘accept it – even righteously! (however we humans are supposed to do that? – i truly cannot think of a single way we can be ‘righteous’ in anger – can you give one single ACTUAL, rather than theoretical scriptural example in our real world life today?)
Laz – i understand about your company and that you will not be ‘deserting the conv – thanks for the warning 🙂 I do however have a point about Jesus and the Whip – we are his flock – do you think a cow-hand weilds a stock whip in anger? Or is he calm and in control and simply using a ‘tool’ that efficiently does his will? (moves the cattle where he wants).
The problem i have with the Ps 69:9 verse relating to Jesus’ passion is that you pointed out the emotion you defined ‘zeal’ as being was ENVY – JEALOUSY (God may be a Jealous God but this was zeal of your HOUSE – ‘consuming me’ (eaten me up) i believe this was the speaker describing the HUMAN’S being zealous(envious) of the man and causing him his grief!
In what way do you and Deb see this verse being intended and then how does that way apply to Jesus in His Father’s House?
Can anyone clarify this for me – or agree with me?
Finally – Deb – i AGREE with you!!
we CAN ‘overcome’ our own human sin – Jesus IS the ‘key’ (stone) – we seem to have a slightly different (but not insurmountable) perspective on just how we humans can get there but we both agree – we can – and he holds the Only Key. 🙂
Regarding sin in general (and our emotions as being a playground for the devil) i think Christian hit the nail on the Head…
we sin when we place OUR self/emotion/physical/mental body BEFORE God ( not as in bowing down and praising but placing it as Number One – we do this every second that we allow our emotions to ‘jump in’ and take over the ‘us’ inside and so ‘kicking’ God ‘out of the way’ – temporarily perhaps but even if it is for a split second it has the potential to cause insurmountable harm – to oursleves or others and that is most definitely not what God wants for us.
it is this sin i am attempting (with the coming string of six more posts) to make us aware of in order that we learn better how to overcome them from our body on earth – a thing i think too many of us fail badly at, mostly because we choose to look away and not looking within to remove it from us (with His ‘key’).
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First of all Love, I am not trying to argue…really. I am just trying to understand and come to a fuller understanding myself. That being said:
” I have explained my ‘mistake’ concerning the Deadly Sin ( Deb – while you may not be a CATHOLIC Christian (neither, i can assure you, am i) they are THE largest single ‘denomination’ of Christians on the planet!
THEIR leader – the most important and influential religious spokesman for these people throughout History has determined that Wrath (Anger) according to Wikipedia) is a MORTAL SIN for humans – one that leads to the loss of our eternal life.
Are you saying that you have a better understanding of Anger than the Pope?? – or are you simply arguing that whatever God does is ok for us to do?’ huh???
I really don’t think we want to get into a discussion of the Pope…really….
I must have missed your “mistake”…soorrrryy
I believe in non-denominational church. The church is the people, not the building or man-made policy.
‘THEIR leader – the most important and influential religious spokesman for these people throughout History has determined that Wrath (Anger) according to Wikipedia) is a MORTAL SIN for humans – one that leads to the loss of our eternal life.’
So…A) Could you please show me scripture that states that anger is a mortal sin that can lead to loss of eternal life.
B) Do you believe you can lose your salvation?
“Finally – Deb – i AGREE with you!!” I’m doing a happy dance!!!!! 🙂
“In what way do you and Deb see this verse being intended and then how does that way apply to Jesus in His Father’s House?”
I’m prayerfully considering my answer so that you can see inside my head and heart a little better…Hopefully I will be able to convey it successfully…thanks love bug.
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Deb, while you did not answer my questions of you i shall do my best to answer yours Faithfully.
Q ‘A’ Deb, you are the one who studies and perfects herself in Scripture – i am a mere occasional observer. I would not ever hope to ‘argue’ Scripture with one such as you.
Having said that are you at all familiar with this quote? It speaks to both your question of me and to what we choose to do here. (it is in Galatians 5)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Hatred and wrath (synonyms for anger as it occurs in humans) are ways of the Flesh, not the Spirit – yet they both are attributed to God in Scripture You may be better placed to show the ‘original’ words used in this passage??
Q ‘B’ Most definitely – a single sin within me is sufficient cause; Only by being as Jesus – perfect human(The Way)- can i ever hope to see the Kingdom. ‘The Bible makes it clear throughout its New Testament that it only takes one sin, which is an act of disobeying God’s law, to separate man from a perfect God, placing him in need of redemption and salvation.’ (Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#Proverbs_6:16_.E2.80.93_19 )
Receiving God’s Grace and the Holy Spirit is not sufficient to keep me away from sin (it removes sin from me – it does not guarantee it won’t ever (rapidly) come back) – unless i have been made and STAY perfect in Him. I have not. I KNOW this.
Why? because i daily find examples of me following MY will and not His Will. Do you know of ANYONE alive who does not do this as me?
I am not saying i ONLY do my will, merely that i do not ALWAYS do His.
It is something i am working upon and hope to encourage others to do the same so that more may be perfect in Him ‘sooner’.
I realise you do a similar thing in the Way He calls you to.
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Hi Love, I thought I had answered your questions, all but one which I said I would come back and answer…so let me try again…
“Are you saying that you have a better understanding of Anger than the Pope?? – or are you simply arguing that whatever God does is ok for us to do?” I felt I answered this above…
“What then of all the Scripture (two of which i have already offered and am certain more examples would be found if YOU cared to look, that specifically instructs us to put angr AWAY from us – not ‘accept it – even righteously! (however we humans are supposed to do that? – i truly cannot think of a single way we can be ‘righteous’ in anger – can you give one single ACTUAL, rather than theoretical scriptural example in our real world life today?)”
I am not discounting that there are many many scriptures which tell us to put away anger and wrath..I’ll try again. There are Biblical examples of people displaying righteous anger. Moses became angry with Pharaoh when he disobeyed God’s order to let the Israelites go Exodus 11:8-10. Moses broke the tablets containing the ten commandments whe he became angry with the Israelites for worshiping a golden calf Exodus 32:19. When Johathan discovered that his father, King Saul, intended to kill David, on of God’s servants, he became righteously angry 1 Samuel 20:34. These were all occurrences which also angered God…the key to righteous anger…1 Corinthians 13:5 deals with not being easily angered or quick to anger…Proverbs 14:17, Proverbs 16:32, Proverbs 17:27, Proverbs 29:11, Proverbs 29:22, Ecclesiastes 7:9 and James 1:19-20 all deal with keeping it under control. Psalm 4:4 , Ephesians 4:26 deal with not sinning while you are angry…Deuteronomy 32:35, Psalm s 37:8, Romans 12:19-21 deal with not taking revenge, …Ephesians 4:26 deals with not remaining angry, I do not believe that God would give us these tools and guidelines if it was a “deadly sin” that caused us to spend eternity away from Him. Which I will get to in a sec..
Read Mark 3:1-6 and Luke 6:6-11…Jesus continued to do God’s work by healing a man with a shriveled hand even though others’ actions had angered him. I still believe righteous anger spurred Him into overturning the money changers tables…I hope that covers your question…
“The problem i have with the Ps 69:9 verse relating to Jesus’ passion is that you pointed out the emotion you defined ‘zeal’ as being was ENVY – JEALOUSY (God may be a Jealous God but this was zeal of your HOUSE – ‘consuming me’ (eaten me up) i believe this was the speaker describing the HUMAN’S being zealous(envious) of the man and causing him his grief!” I agree that David while he was writing this was describing his own grief…but his words (if you read this entire Psalm) were triggered by what happened in the Temple. Does that make sense? I hope that covered your previous post, and while there are some things I would like to answer on your most current one, it will be a little bit. Things have been a bit fast paced since Moms passing..but I’ll get to it sometime today!
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I only have a few minutes available, but wanted to add what I see as the clearest Biblical example of ‘righteous indignation’ (in an imperfect human) that was condoned by God.
It’s found in Numbers 25:1-13. In verse 11, the same word for ‘zeal’ is used of Phineas’ and God’s. It is the Hebrew ‘qinah’ I noted in my first comment above (meaning jealousy).
‘Sorry, but gotta go now,
D-
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We Have a winner!!!
Deb has provided irrefutable ‘proof’ (assuming the divinity of Scripture) That we must (should) be angry!
‘I (Jesus) AM the Way!’
Deb has offered Mark 3:5 and there is nothing i can find that qualifies it in any way.
‘And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts,’
Deb : 1, 800 million Catholics and the Pope: Zip. (and me, and anyone else fooled by wikipedia and the Catholics that Anger was a sin – even a Deadly One).
OK – one sin down – 6 to go! 😉
This means we have the right to get righteously angry every time we see a Cross with Jesus on it as God clearly hates this and instructs us not to do such or pray to such.
Ten Commandments: Exodus 20 4:5
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness OF ANY THING that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
The rest of the chapter gives me many clear examples of what i can now get righteously angry about.
Slowly – of course. 😉
God’s vengeance is coming!
and i still say the reference to Jesus in the temple of Ps69:9 says more that he was in grief as was David in that verse than anger. If what you are saying is right in this case Deb why would the reference not have been Ps 69 1:24 – Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.? Surely this would make it crystal clear what Jesus was doing??
If he was Angry then that is.
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Little Help?
I need about ten kilo’s of explosive and a return trip to Rio?
(Reno? why Reno? Not Reno stupid, Rio! – de Jenero) 🙂
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I know this post isn’t one you’d likely want to revisit, but on my trip last week, I was reading a book someone gave me that brought me back to these thoughts on anger.
The book is “The Secret Things of God” by Dr. Henry Cloud. He is a Christian Psychologist, and so I’d hope is way more knowlegeable and experienced than me. But his writings were very confirming, especially in his chapter titled,
“Good and Mad Preserves Relationships”.
Here are some excerpts:
“…anger used properly is one of the most important tools to good relationships and a good life.”
“…anger is a protective emotion, designed to protect what is good, and destroy what is bad.
We get angry by design, when something that is good and valuable to us is endangered or injured or threatened.
…It stands up to fight for the love and to put an end to the evil that has encroached on the heart. That is what is referred to as ‘righteous anger’. It is standing up for what is right.”
“…If someone tries to take away your freedom and control you, your anger would be aroused and you’d say, ‘No, I won’t allow that to happen. I will fight for freedom. It is a precious thing!’ If you did not feel your anger, you would become a prisoner to the relationship without even knowing it. Your heart would grow cold and your love would die as the control over you tightened. But if you are alive and healthy, your anger would not allow another person to steal your freedom.”
“Use anger for something ‘good’. Ask yourself if what you’re angry about is worth protecting. Sometimes we use anger to protect bad things, like pride or our own control. Make sure that your anger is just and righteous, meaning that there really is a threat to something worth protecting. Our pride is not worth protecting, but our love is.”
There really is a lot more in that chapter that I’d like to quote, but this is already way long (not surprising for me, I know =).
‘Just wanted to share for whoever else may also have experienced those emotions. I believe that in close relationships (including God’s with us, as well as ours with other humans) these emotions are not only unavoidable, but necessary, as long as they do not lead to sin that would destroy rather than strengthen the relationship.
‘Just something to think about if you ever find the ‘righteous kind’ flaring up in you on occasion(?)…so you won’t feel condemned by it =).
Yes, I know just because someone has a ‘professional title’ with a ‘Christian’ perspective, doesn’t mean he’s God. If I didn’t already see it supported in the Word (from my personal point of view also), it wouldn’t have any authority anyway. It’s just good to know that someone who has studied and counseled much more re:relationships might come to the same conclusions too.
D-
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Dana – I love your long posts! 🙂
This gives me much cause to consider, but i have to say, on the whole i feel very negatively towards the ‘good’ doctor.
In the course of my discussions here and on other posts i am becomming VERY concerned about the prevailing mindset and maybe i am the one who is being ‘less right’ here, but it is beginning to appear to me – especially from what the Dr says that many people think along the lines of “man does it so it must be all right – it’s our nature and we just can’t change that” we need to defend that – not the ‘bad bits’, just the ‘good bits’ (and in the process they are holding on to some ‘bad bits’ they either can’t or don’t want to ‘let go’ of).
What the Dr was saying seems to stem more from his practice of dealing with troubled humans than from what Jesus commands us concerning our enemies in Matt5:38-44,
38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
God’s anger may – or may not be ‘righteous’ for God. Human anger is almost always vased upon our own pride – or pride for things of Human creation.
We transpose it sometimes onto God and what we THINK He wants or has decreed is ‘right’ and then feel justified and ‘righteous’ when it is often merely our own rage we are dooing, not God’s Will.
Jesus has shown us how Love conquers all – Love of God gained through TRUE inderstanding and ‘loss’ of our own self.
Anger lies very deep in us and our anger is HARD to remove from us in some situations. If we cannot control it (and i have never met one who can) then it is best we cast it from us than be condemmned eternally because of it.
I see much more potential in humans for evil than good because of Anger.
Love can save us – when we align ours fully with God’s Love for us.
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